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One of our favorite "militants," Khaled Meshal, who reputedly directs the Hamas from Damascus, gave an interview in Arabic to the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper. This interview has been variously cited in Israeli newspapers in English and in Hebrew. According to the Itim report in Hebrew, Meshal billed himself as the successor of Yasser Arafat, but this text does not appear in an English language translation of the interview presented below.

It seems apparent from the interview that Meshal calls the shots in the Hamas (literally and firguratively) and that it is he who is responsible for Hamas intransigence.

Meshal revealed an essential strategy of Hamas, not noted in articles that cite this interview:

[Meshal] ... Hamas's political stands on the ideas are known, especially those about the questions of (recognizing) Israel and the establishment of two states. However, we later presented a flexible version that can, for anyone in the Palestinian arena who so desires, constitute a common factor for forming a national unity government and then be marketed to the international community.

It is clear from the above that Hamas will never deviate from its principles. As he says "Hamas's political stands on the ideas are known." However, it is willing to invent a propaganda "story" that can be marketed, which is more ambiguous than the actual stands and will pacify those who want to believe. Meshal's concessions to the Fatah are that he is willing to invent better lies for the foreign Khawajas.

Meshal did not exactly say that he knows Israel exists either. He talked about mostly about the "Zionist entity" in the familiar language of the refusal camp, and he made clear that the "occupation" he wants to end extends over all of the land. He did mention "an entity called Israel" - a great concession:


... one of our stands is not to recognize the Zionist entity. Why do I say this? Some are saying we are not realists. There is a difference. The Zionist entity exists in reality and I have to give it legitimacy and recognize its legitimacy. One who does not recognize the Zionist entity is not a dreamer and not a non-realist.

We are realists. Realism does not mean you have to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. An entity exists in reality. But as a Palestinian, I should not recognize the legitimacy of the occupation in the first place. Moreover, why am I being asked to give legitimacy to an occupation of my land when there are millions from the Palestinian people who are from this land on which this entity was established? There is an entity called Israel. Yes, but I am not concerned with recognizing it



The interview also perpetuated the farce of the "calrm" (Tahidiyeh) that Hamas has supposedly maintained with Israel:


[Interviewer question] But Hamas has adhered to the calm with Israel for almost two years?

[Meshal] Yes. That is part of our efforts to look for ways to get our rights.



Immediately after this exchange however, the interview dwelt on the fate of Gilad Shalit. Shalit was captured in a Hamas raid on Israeli territory, a raid that took place during this supposed "calm."

Meshal also explained that he is not violent or a terrorist. He gives himself the sanction of international law to blow up people in supermarkets in order to perpetrate eventual genocide. He asserts that Palestinians living in Gaza will just have to put up with the international boycott in order to achieve their "rights:"


[Meshal] We do not consider what we do terrorism or violence. It is legitimate resistance even under international law. Therefore I do not accept any term from which it is understood that I condemn myself. It is the aggressor side that is practicing violence and terrorism. It (Israel) is the one practicing all kinds of terrorism against the humans, land, holy places, and trees.

Therefore I assert my right to resistance. It is my legitimate right to resist the occupation as long as my people are dispersed and my land occupied. As to terrorism, it is a craft exported to us from outside. It is American injustice and Zionist aggression that created the terrorism and provided its background.

[Humaydi] This means that the blockade will continue and you are calling on the Palestinian people to stand fast as they are suffering?

[Meshal] A people who want their freedom, the liberation of their land, self-determination, independence, and eliminating the occupation must be patient.



The complete text of the interview (insofar as is known) is below (at http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000263.html for those reading this in an e-mail message).

Ami Isseroff



Hamas's Meshal on Qatari Initiative, Unity Government, Israeli Threats, Other Issues

London Al-Hayat in Arabic
October 12, 2006 p5

Interview with Khalid Meshal, chairman of the Islamic Resistance Movement's (Hamas) Political Bureau, by Ibrahim Humaydi in Damascus on 10 October 10.

Khalid Meshal, chairman of the "Islamic Resistance Movement's" (Hamas) Political Bureau, is taking the Israeli threats to assassinate him "seriously", even though he is in Damascus that has not been penetrated security wise by the Israeli intelligence services.

Meshal (Abu-al-Walid) says these threats "do not scare me because I came close to death and they do not impede my political work." But they strongly influenced his daily life, movements, and meetings. His bodyguards do not relax even when he is with his friends. Appointments have to be changed as well as the venues in Damascus's various neighborhoods, cut short. Recording and filming equipment are banned and security searched.

These measures were in place before the meeting that lasted two hours after Tuesday midnight in a small house in one of Damascus's modest neighborhoods. Unusually, Meshal could offer only water and tea. Following is the text of the interview:

[Humaydi] "Fatah" says that Hamas is responsible for the failure of [Qatari Foreign Minister] Shaykh Hamad's initiative?

[Meshal] We, the movement's leadership in Damascus and Gaza, dealt most positively with the Qatari mediation because we are eager for the success of any effort, especially an Arab one, which seeks to overcome the obstacles facing the formation of a national unity government.

[Humaydi] What did Hamas offer?

[Meshal] We had observations about Shaykh Hamad's initiative. Hamas's political stands on the ideas are known, especially those about the questions of (recognizing) Israel and the establishment of two states. However, we later presented a flexible version that can, for anyone in the Palestinian arena who so desires, constitute a common factor for forming a national unity government and then market it at the international community's level.

[Humaydi] So, why did it not make progress?

[Meshal] It hit the barrier of American insistence on the "Quartet's" conditions. The brothers in the Palestinian Authority make their approval of any political formula dependent on the US administration's acceptance of it. Their reasoning for saying this is that the unity government must be acceptable to the international community. This is unacceptable. It is unreasonable for the Palestinian understanding and the formation of a unity government to be subject to the criteria of the US administration or the "Quartet."

We responded the first time when we reached the "national accord document", which the forces agreed should be the political base for the unity government. Who backed down? The other party backed down. Other efforts were made for dialogue and reaching political specifics. The other side began, following US interference and pressures, to talk about the "Quartet's" conditions.

[Humaydi] Clearly, what is your stand toward the international conditions as expressed in the "Quartet's" conditions?

[Meshal] We declared that we would not submit to the "Quartet's" conditions because they are, in principle, unfair and unjust. Secondly, we are opposed to linking our fates totally to our enemies' conditions. How do we deal with the international community? This is something different. But it is impermissible to link our internal affair and fates to our enemies' conditions. Thirdly, the "Quartet's" conditions are not new. They were proposed from the start. Some acknowledged them. But what did they get? Nothing. For the Palestinian and Arab parties that accepted these conditions, nothing real happened on the ground. Why should we repeat the others' experiences, especially if they had reached dead end?

[Humaydi] So you reject the "Quartet's" conditions and the Arab initiative?

[Meshal] No. I said the parties concerned with the settlement and the Arab-Israeli conflict did not deal with the Arab initiative seriously. We say therefore that the problem is not with the initiative or the Arab countries but with the American and Israeli parties that reject the initiative and want us to comply with the "Quartet's" conditions. We were told in the past that the initiative was merely a step. Then we were officially told by some Arab and Palestinian parties: Acceptance of the Arab initiative is an important step for persuading the international community because it includes recognition of the "Quartet's" conditions. Therefore it was not wanted for itself but for what would follow, that is, to be a step for accepting the "Quartet's" conditions.

[Humaydi] But the Qatari initiative included a version of the "Quartet's" conditions, such as recognition of the two states option and the signed agreements [agreements signed by the PLO in the past - Oslo accords]?

[Meshal] Shaykh Hamad has the right to act and to have his mediation. We welcome any Arab effort. But in the end, we deal with all these efforts while taking into account two issues: Our people's interests because we are their trustees and achieving the largest measure of political agreement with the political forces to form a unity government and unify our efforts so as to wrest our rights from our enemies.

[Humaydi] Shaykh Hamad's initiative failed?

[Meshal] I do not hide from you that today (Tuesday) I telephoned Amir of Qatar Shaykh Hamad Bin-Khalifah and Foreign Minister Shaykh Hamad who said: I am continuing the mediation. There are obstacles but he is insisting on continuing it.

[Humaydi] He acts with US approval?

[Meshal] The Americans are acquainted with his initiative. But we do not know the real US stand. I cannot estimate the extent of their approval. The proof is that even with the Qatari mediation efforts, it was the insistence on taking us back to the "Quartet's" conditions which hampered these efforts.

[Humaydi] Do you accept a solution based on two states, an Israeli and a Palestinian, according to President George Bush's vision?

[Meshal] As a Palestinian, I am concerned with the establishment of a Palestinian state and not concerned with the occupation state. Why is the Palestinian is being asked and why should the establishment of two states become among his objectives and principles? The Zionist state exists. I am talking about my absent Palestinian state. I was the one deprived of my state, sovereignty, independence, freedom, and self-determination. Therefore we ought to concentrate on how to achieve our rights. I am concerned with the establishment of my state.

[Humaydi] Do you agree with Prime Minister Isma'il Haniyah's remarks: A Palestinian state within the 1967 territories and a truce?

[Meshal] This is a stand in the movement and it was adopted inside it. The movement accepts a state within the 1967 borders and a truce.

[Humaydi] Why a truce?

[Meshal] With a truce because one of our stands is not to recognize the Zionist entity. Why do I say this? Some are saying we are not realists. There is a difference. The Zionist entity exists in reality and I have to give it legitimacy and recognize its legitimacy. One who does not recognize the Zionist entity is not a dreamer and not a non-realist.

We are realists. Realism does not mean you have to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. An entity exists in reality. But as a Palestinian, I should not recognize the legitimacy of the occupation in the first place. Moreover, why am I being asked to give legitimacy to an occupation of my land when there are millions from the Palestinian people who are from this land on which this entity was established? There is an entity called Israel. Yes, but I am not concerned with recognizing it.

[Humaydi] You are not concerned with recognition but accept the agreements?

[Meshal] We are dealing with the signed agreements that are on the ground in accordance with the Palestinian people's interests. If they serve my people's interests, then I will exercise them.

[Humaydi] So it is a selective approval?

[Meshal] I will not go into details. There have been several agreements since Oslo till now. We ought to deal first with the criteria related to the Palestinian people's interest. Then why is there this harshness with us to be asked to implement these agreements to the letter, praise and glorify them while the other side which signed them implements what it likes when it likes? Why should we comply with them all together while it complies with them selectively? It is our right as Palestinians and as any government to deal with these agreements in a realistic way that takes into consideration the public interest and balances of power and to make the Palestinian people's interest the criterion for dealing with them.

[Humaydi] What about "renunciation of terrorism"? Shaykh Hamad's initiative included such a clause?

[Meshal] We do not consider what we do terrorism or violence. It is legitimate resistance even under international law. Therefore I do not accept any term from which it is understood that I condemn myself. It is the aggressor side that is practicing violence and terrorism. It (Israel) is the one practicing all kinds of terrorism against the humans, land, holy places, and trees.

Therefore I assert my right to resistance. It is my legitimate right to resist the occupation as long as my people are dispersed and my land occupied. As to terrorism, it is a craft exported to us from outside. It is American injustice and Zionist aggression that created the terrorism and provided its background.

[Humaydi] This means that the blockade will continue and you are calling on the Palestinian people to stand fast as they are suffering?

[Meshal] A people who want their freedom, the liberation of their land, self-determination, independence, and eliminating the occupation must be patient. They have no choice other than standing fast, patience, sacrifices, and resistance. Our people are noble and have practiced this for dozens of years and are continuing to do so.

Anyone who believes that Hamas is being harsh to its people is wrong because this is our fate, whether it comes from Hamas or elsewhere. Our Palestinian people have only resistance, sacrifices, and steadfastness for achieving the rights. We are not burdening our people with something new. On the contrary, we are a shoot from this people and part of them and interact with all the forces. No one has so far offered us our legitimate rights through peaceful means. Had the international community offered us a way for achieving our rights without resistance, then we would have resorted to this route because resistance is a means and not an end.

[Humaydi] Some are saying: Meshal is calling for standing fast from his comfortable place in Damascus and the Palestinian people are paying the price?

[Meshal] This would have been right had the Palestinian people inside had any other choices and Khalid Meshal and the leaders abroad were saying something else. The truth is not like that. Our people inside stand for steadfastness and resistance. They do not need anyone to teach them. We are one people and everyone is suffering.

[Humaydi] It was said that Meshal is behind all the problems: Impeding the agreement to exchange the prisoner Gilad [Shalit], a unity government, and Shaykh Hamad's initiative?

[Meshal] And what did they say after the speech of brother Isma'il Haniyah? Why are they not venting their anger upon him? This is a trick. They are trying to personify the political stand. They know that Hamas is a political institution. When it talks about its stand, whether through a leader inside or a leader outside, it talks about the stand of an institution. But those who want to sidestep the stands and make accusations for some purposes resort to personifying the stands.

[Humaydi] But you are accused of intransigence and there is talk that Syria is preventing you from being flexible?

[Meshal] Why is this being said? There is a dual aim: To dividethe Hamas stand, isolate those inside, and attempt to pressure Damascus and pin responsibilities on it of which it is innocent. We have an example before us. When Israel foiled the settlement, whom did it hold responsible? The late President Yasser Arafat, may God has mercy on his soul. Why? Because they wanted to pin responsibility on some other party when it was the United States and Israel that were responsible. These are suspicious designs and no one believes them other than those propagating them.

[Humaydi] Are you a moderate or a hard liner?

[Meshal] There is no moderate or hard liner. Everyone is bound by the movement's decision.

[Humaydi] How is the consultation done?

[Meshal] It is a complicated way because of our complicated conditions. There are leaders in the West Bank, Gaza, in jails, and abroad. We are eager to consult but manage our decision in a complicated way so as to remain respectful of the movement's leadership institution. This gives the movement strength.

[Humaydi] Secretary Condoleezza Rice has bet on splits in Hamas?

[Meshal] Imagine the hostile reasoning. To launch the settlement you have to destroy the other party, as if she has no problem other than to tear up "Hamas." It was said in the past that the peace process would not advance unless Arafat went. All right, Arafat passed away. Did the settlement advance? The lie is repeated and they do not realize that the region's peoples understand their tricks. Their trick is exposed.

Warning Against Sedition

[Humaydi] Is the unity government option finished?

[Meshal] No, it is not finished.

[Humaydi] There is no contact between you and President Abbas? The gap exists?

[Meshal] Unfortunately, our Palestinian political system was born unnaturally in difficult conditions, an authority under occupation. We regret that this system is based on two heads: The presidency and the government. There is no understanding between them. In my view, the defect is there because we were influenced by the external factor though the potentials for internal understanding are great. Nothing is preventing having a unity government and internal understanding.

[Humaydi] But the situation few days ago was on the brink of civil war and sedition?

[Meshal] This is something regrettable. God willing, it was not a "rehearsal" of a civil war or internal fighting. But this is everyone's responsibility. We have internal constants: To respect the Palestinian blood and to resort to dialogue and institutions in any political dispute. But to attain respect for these principles and avoid any internal conflict, everyone must shoulder his responsibilities. It is impermissible to ask Hamas alone. We respect this and comply with it and always recommend it while there is another party that is pouring oil over the fire.

[Humaydi] Who?

[Meshal] Without names. Igniting chaos in the Palestinian street and aggravating matters on the ground are bound to explode the internal situations. We ought to rally to treat our internal problems. We do not deny that there are political disagreements between us but this should be dealt with through the constitutional channels, dialogue, and contacts and not through open fighting in the field of battle. This is unacceptable. The field should be for confronting the Zionist enemy. This is everyone's responsibility and not that of a particular party.

[Humaydi] Sources in Hamas have held parties around Abbas responsible?

[Meshal] I am not concerned with mentioning names. But our people know the facts, who acted and made efforts to bring the stands closer. They understood where the defect was and the responsibility for not reaching an agreement. The national unity government is something possible and even necessary. Nothing is hampering it, especially as we agreed on the "accord document." But there is a big question: Why are we not forming this government?

[Humaydi] Why?

[Meshal] This is a question for others and not for "Hamas." It is not permissible to blame the external conditions. It is impermissible to thwart such a program because some people probably wish to maintain the state of turmoil so as to overturn the existing situation quickly and return to previous or past situations. This is not in our people's interest. The people have the right to disagree and object. But what is happening in the Palestinian arena is something unacceptable to the national reason and does not serve anyone's interest.

[Humaydi] So you are saying that parties in the Palestinian Authority want to stage a coup against the situation?

[Meshal] I am describing a reality and not in the stage of making accusations against anyone. Yes, some are seeking a coup against the elections outcome and cannot bear to see this political session complete its period.

[Humaydi] What if President Abbas calls for elections and dissolves the government and Legislative Council?

[Meshal] We will talk about that when the time comes.

[Humaydi] Will you resort to the street and arms or to constitutional means?

[Meshal] We will act then according to the nature of the measure. There is one action if it was a purely constitutional one and there is another action if it was not constitutional.

[Humaydi] You do not accept the "Quartet's" conditions and the choice is objection and resistance?

[Meshal] Yes, and knocking on all doors.

[Humaydi] But Hamas has adhered to the calm with Israel for almost two years?

[Meshal] Yes. That is part of our efforts to look for ways to get our rights.

Shalit and "Hizballah"

[Humaydi] What about the deal to exchange Shalit and 1,000 prisoners? It was said that Damascus is preventing its achievement?

[Meshal] There are two fallacies: The first is that of accusing Syria of pushing us into intransigence and accusing us of intransigence. The Israeli soldier's decision is not in Damascus or in a specific geographic location. The decision concerns the movement's stand. The second fallacy is that Israel is so far rejecting the principle of exchange.

[Humaydi] Is it true that the proposal is to release Shalit and then the children and women?

[Meshal] Yes. The proposal is to release Shalit after which Israel releases detainees within some political context and through meetings so that it would become Israeli generosity. Israel has not accepted so far the exchange package. It is (Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert and his intransigence that is impeding reaching an agreement.

[Humaydi] Does Meshal know where Shalit is and his health?

[Meshal] We do not interfere in such matters. There is a side specializing in this. We are concerned with the political situation and the movement's stand in dealing with these issues and not with these details.

[Humaydi] Is there concern that Olmert will exact revenge from the Palestinian people after Shalit's release?

[Meshal] This is not the influential factor in the exchange package and Shalit's release. The principal factor is the action to release the largest possible number of Palestinian male and female prisoners and Arabs. What is required is the release of 1,000 prisoners, women, and children. The prisoners issue is a sensitive one and is a humanitarian and political issue. We have before us the issue of 10,000 prisoners. This is a national concern. No one dares to be remiss in this issue.

[Humaydi] Shalit will not be released whatever happens?

[Meshal] This is the movement's stand.

[Humaydi] "Hizballah" Secretary General Hasan Nasrallah said had he learned of the Israeli reaction, he would not have kidnapped the two soldiers. Do you have the same feeling? Shalit would not have been kidnapped if you knew what Israel's reaction to Gaza would be?

[Meshal] First, I did not issue the decision to capture the soldier and had no prior knowledge of this operation so as to make an assessment in hindsight. I do not believe that anyone regrets this heroic operation of which I am proud. It was the first military operation against the occupier. One soldier was captured and he is therefore a prisoner of war. Those who carried it out were looking at their brothers' suffering in the enemy's jails. This is an action that we are proud of and do not regret.

[Humaydi] There are Israeli threats to assassinate you, which is something old. But the new thing is that there are Palestinian threats?

[Meshal, laughs] I do not pay attention to some (Palestinian) statements threatening me. This is a strange language in our Palestinian arena and statements were issued disavowing them. May God forgive everyone. We bear no hatreds toward anyone and these remain our Palestinian people's sons. We do not pause too long before them.

As to the Zionist threat, it is something normal to receive threats from our enemy. I feel proud that I am a bone in the enemy's throat with every threat to me. When the enemy chases me, threatens me, and tries to assassinate me, it makes feel that I am walking, thanks be to God, along the right road. But this does not scare me because I tasted death and came close to it. We take the Zionist threats seriously but they do not scare us. Of course, they increase the security burdens and measures but do not disrupt my role or scare me.

Original content is Copyright by the author 2006. Posted at ZioNation-Zionism and Israel Web Log, http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000263.html where your intelligent and constructive comments are welcome. Disributed by ZNN list. Subscribe by sending a message to ZNN-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. Please forward by e-mail with this notice, cite this article and link to it. Other uses by permission only.

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